Lunchtime Q&A with Jenée Tibshraeny and Leighton Roberts

Lunchtime Q&A with Jenée Tibshraeny and Leighton Roberts


Hi everyone, Leighton Roberts here, one of the co-founders of Sharesies, here with Jenee from interest.co.nz. Just before we get into any details, it’d just be great if you could give us a thumbs up if you can hear and see us okay. Just waiting for some sort of reaction here.Yes, we’ve got one! And another one! Alright, that’s great. Well thank you so much for joining us everyone. We thought it was a great time to get together and have a chat about what’s been happening in the markets. Little bit of volatility, maybe a little bit more than a little bit. In some cases I know, looking at my own portfolio it’s always a bit unnerving to see some pretty big numbers wiped off of a percentage, or at least that’s how it feels. So we thought we’d hopefully share some of the insight we have. Jenee, thank you so much for coming along and joining us. Maybe you could just give everyone a little bit of an update on what you get up to day-to-day. Cool, well thanks so much for having me. I am a journalist for interest.co.nz which is a financial news website, and I’m based in Wellington at the Parliamentary Press Gallery. So I write about basically decisions the government makes that affects the economy, and I also have an interest in personal finance, so I write a wee bit about investments and banking and insurance and that sort of thing. And yeah, I mean I just have an interest in these topics. I’m not a financial adviser. I mean, if I was really good at this stuff I probably wouldn’t be sitting here talking to you because I’d be on my luxury yacht somewhere, so don’t take anything I say as financial advice. But I do watch what people say and hopefully I can sort of, you know, that can be useful for people. Yeah, and I guess that goes the same for me. I’m also not a financial adviser, I’m a very passionate investor, obviously one of the co-founders of Sharesies so very interested in this and do have some opinions and do a lot of reading on, sort of, lots of experts and what’s going on. I’ve been following the news pretty closely, which has been great. I’ve also got an awesome bunch of insight out of our Dealing team at Sharesies as well. So to everyone out there listening, thank you so much for tuning in and for the questions you’ve given so far, and we might as well just start right with the first one. Jenee, it might be a great one for you to give us a bit of insight on, which is ‘why have share prices dipped?’. Right, so as everyone knows, the share market has been going really well for a number of years now, and actually perhaps longer than people thought. A few years ago, I was sort of waiting for things to dip off because I thought ‘this can’t keep going’, but it’s just kept going. Then end of 2018 there was some major jitters with like, China US trade war, and things dropped off and those gains came back again. Now there’s the coronavirus of course, and it seems like markets took awhile to react, but then when they reacted they well and truly reacted. As most of you are probably aware, you’ve seen major dips. It’s been interesting to actually see that the US markets haven’t seemed to have taken as much of a hit as the Asian and European ones, but I mean, it’s…after generally a long period of market going up, we’re seeing some volatility now. But it’s kind of not unusual, right? Markets go up, markets go down, and currently, they’re going down. I mean, that’s a great point. I think one of the unusual bits is probably the sustained increase for such a long time, so I would say though that the 4% dip we saw in the US a couple of days ago, it’s the worst in a couple of years in a single day, and interestingly, in the last couple of days and particularly overnight last night, it had a couple of good cracks at recovering, so there’s obviously still a fair bit of positive sentiment out there as well, but it all ended up sort of flattening off. If we look at the New Zealand market today there’s been some really promising results. A2 milk came out with a great result and that’s trading up quite a bit today so some of those recoveries are starting to take place but it just shows how these different levers, so the coronavirus is obviously the one that’s topical everywhere so one of the interesting things about when markets start to go a little rougher is they get a lot of media attention. So I’m really interested to ask you as a journalist, why we think this is the first announcement when I wake up, on the Radio New Zealand bulletin and stuff in the morning. Quite often it’s really hard to get business news, so what is it that’s getting so much, you know, why is it getting so much more attention this time? Well I suppose the nature of this sort of an event is scary. It catches people’s attention. You see these sort of crazy images coming out of China with streets that were once bustling and now people are being confined to their houses, they can’t go to work. These sorts of things people can relate to and they think ‘Oh my god, that is quite terrifying’. So there is that human element to it, and then I suppose when markets, those drops that you talked about before Leighton, when that starts happening, I mean it is definitely newsworthy. The thing about this though, I mean, just the uncertainty around it, is the bit I think that is concerning, so I know I keep seeing these as different economists have different forecasts, and even Treasury is looking at the scenario as to what could happen and how the government might respond and the Reserve Bank’s doing the same thing. But I just think this uncertainty around it all makes it kind of that much more intimidating for many people. I think that’s a good first take away maybe for this session, which is I’m sure everyone here has heard it before, but it’s great to reiterate. Markets like certainty, they don’t like uncertainty, and no one really knows the impact yet what the coronavirus might have on things like travel, tourism, export. We’re seeing that, if you look at the local market, the ones that were impacted first was really those sort of companies related to that, so even some of our really sort of strong performers, like our ports, because of that uncertainty they’ve generally tended to be quite certain sort of investment so some of them are experiencing it and might not normally have done so. I just want one more point quickly on the coronavirus which is it’s another big sort of, sort of pandemic type of environments like this where there has been a lot of media attention, and the markets have reacted similarly in the short term, but if we look back at the SARS one for example, by the end of the year they did work their way through. So once we get more information come to hand things like what’s happening or what the actual impacts will be then I’m sure that will start to clear itself up pretty fast. Yeah, I mean the interesting thing about this has been, and everyone’s probably heard this in the news, is just how there’ve been certain sectors that have been really sort of badly affected, you know, being aviation and tourism, so it’d be interesting to see how governments respond to that and whether they really target that support which seems to be the approach currently being taken, as opposed to doing something sort of a bit bigger to get everyone spending money and stimulating the economy and encouraging growth and that kind of thing. Completely. I just saw a comment down here from one of the viewers saying that investing is good if doing dollar-cost averaging, which a lot of Sharesies customers do, and I think that for anyone using that, that’s a very good point. Dollar-cost averaging is actually a very poor strategy if you only invest when markets are high, so you need to take this volatility as part of that, which means, you know, if that’s the strategy you’re using, it is important to keep buying in the downs as well as the actually asked was ‘should we sell and hold, and then reinvest again at a lower actually asked was should we sell and
hold and then reinvest again at a lower price?’. Look, I mean, I think… So this is the thing that everyone’s thinking, right, is how much further is the market gonna fall? It started falling, do you jump in now? Is it gonna fall a bit more? That’s kind of the big question, and I don’t have the answer to that because if I did, I’d probably be quite rich. But then I think the other important thing to think about is how quickly a recovery might happen, so you know, presumably there will be a recovery, but just how quickly that happens, I think, is the other thing to be mindful of. Generally speaking, and I know this is kind of a boring thing to say, but my personal view is that it’s really important to know what your risk profile is, and you know how when you have your KiwiSaver you might choose growth or conservative or whatever, and then your assets are allocated accordingly. So if you’re growth, you might have more equity, less cash, and so on. and that’s the way I look at my
investment portfolio really is across my I mean, that’s the way I look at my investment portfolio really, is across my KiwiSaver and everything to make sure that those apportionments are aligned with my risk profile. So if I were to get my money out next year to do something, to buy a house or something like that, you know, then I need to make sure I have more cash and less equities. Or if I have ten years and I’m able to go through the ups and downs, then I can have more money in equities. I think as long as you have a plan and stick to it through ups and downs, it’s quite a useful approach. Yeah, I mean, I agree with all of that. I mean, I think selling and holding is absolutely a strategy that people can employ, and I guess the other challenge, or the million or billion dollar question I suppose that you can see are uncertain is because of how fluctuation is happening in the US in particular, and then during the trading day at the moment, finding where that bottom is really hard. So if you sell, then you really do risk having to buy at a higher number, or you might do really well and be able to buy lower. But if your strategy was ten years, and you still believe that the investments are good, or you’re diversified enough across them, then sometimes just buying accepting that markets go up and down. When it comes time to sell, if that’s ten years time and assuming the economy does what it’s supposed to do, which is continue to grow and geared to do, then you can expect that this dip will just be hardly even noticeable, and that sort of trajectory of the market. We’ve got the next question which I think is a great one, because I know a lot of our Sharesies investors are particularly interested in dividends. The question is, ‘what do you think the share price decrease will do to dividend payouts?’. So I might start by answering with my view on this one. So dividends, you know, in a nutshell, are a company paying some of its cash that it holds back out to its investors and it’s one of the ways, of course, as investors we manage to make a return. So the prices are always trying to guess what’s going to happen in the future, so you’re not, sort of, often you’re not paying for the value of a company today, you’re paying for the value of what the company might be in the future. Part of that includes what dividend it might pay. So the reason some of these things are going down, if we take Air New Zealand for an example, which pays quite good dividends and has been quite consistent on it, is that investors are thinking that there’s a bit of risk to the ability for Air New Zealand to make money in an environment where travel is very hard or risky, so as a result, in the short term, the dividend payouts could be exactly the same, and as a result, those yields that we see on the Sharesies platform and stuff will look a little bit higher. So that’s your return, but over time, by nature of this price going down, what we’re saying is investors, by setting the market price at that point, is that ‘hey, we think actually they might struggle to pay the same amount of money out as what they have historically, because business is just going to be a little bit harder’. So to round that out, what I’m saying I think, is there’s a lot of uncertainty still. Dividends that…companies that are focused on paying out dividends will continue to focus on that but what we’re, this uncertainty is causing us to second-guess whether they’ll have the same amount of money available due to lack of revenue or sales or something that they’ve previously had to be able to pay those same nice ones that we’ve sort of been experiencing over the last couple of years. So have you got anything to add? No, that was great, yep, good one! So maybe we’ll go on to the next one then. The question a lot of people asking is ‘could this turn into a long term downward trend like a bear market?’. So maybe we could start by explaining what a bear market is. Do you want to take that Jenee? Okay, so people are more sort of, afraid to invest, and that’s, I mean, markets are interesting things aren’t they? As we said at the start of this conversation, it is just all about confidence, so if confidence goes too much to the point, people sort of pull right back. Couple of interesting things though, is that the current environment, I think, is quite interesting because interest rates are really low at the moment. So previously, like at the GFC, central banks tried to stimulate the economy to get people to spend money. The GFC was the global financial crisis. So it’s the big dip we saw in 2008. Yes. They cut interest rates because then it was cheaper for people to borrow money, and if it’s cheaper for people to borrow money, the idea is that then households and governments go out and spend money, which then stimulates the economy, and that’s what we saw happen. This time, interest rates are really low already, so the official cash rate in New Zealand is already at 1%, so that doesn’t really leave a whole lot of room for the Reserve Bank to cut interest rates to get people to spend more money. Because, I mean, if the cost of getting a mortgage was the thing that was stopping you from doing it, the interest rate, um I mean, if the interest rates were a little bit lower you probably weren’t going to go out and buy a house or do something, because they’re already so low. So that means that people currently looking for yield on their investments can’t get it from the bond markets, so they’re putting it into the share market, because that’s where they’re getting a greater return because these interest rates are so low already. So where I’m going with that is I just think it would be interesting in terms of a recovery, because people are still looking for yield, you know, and I sometimes wonder, and I don’t really have the answer to this, but whether people are investing in equities more than they otherwise would purely because they’re looking for that yield, they’re looking for those returns—which have, as you guys know, have been like 20% and so on, and perhaps are investing in equity markets not because they think these companies are amazing and doing great things, but just ‘cus they’re looking for yield because of that low-interest-rate environment. So I don’t know what you think about this Leighton, whether a recovery might be faster than it otherwise would because of this low-interest-rate environment. Yeah, I mean, I think I have my own opinions on it, and I’ve also heard Adrian Orr, who’s, of course, our Reserve Bank Governor, speak to some of this and I think his view on the economy is that we’re in a more stable environment for longer and growing continually, probably not like we’ve seen maybe over the last two or three years, but more stable because of exactly what you’ve spoken about, interest rates being so low. So I agree with exactly what you’ve said, I think companies are continue to be…going to continue to be a great option for investors because it’s very hard to make your money work for you in the bank now with savings rates, and that’s going to keep demand up, and of course, if there’s demand, then demand fuels, you know, the investment markets. It’s just like anything else consumer wise, which is supply and demand, help you set the price. So if there’s more demand, you can expect the price to increase, and as long as dividends and yield continues to be higher, then I think, I think you’re right. I certainly expect the recovery to be faster than what it might otherwise be. In saying that, we definitely don’t know the answer, and I think…I think we’ve said ourselves, but we’re probably back about two months ago, if you think about stepping back in time price-wise, it’s roughly where we are now. So that’s also quite a nice way to think about it actually, because those percentages and those dollar losses can feel so bad, but you think that’s actually now just what it was worth two months ago. Just on that point, I talked to a fund manager recently about this idea, and this is before coronavirus, but about this idea that because we’re in this low-interest-rate environment, people are investing in shares purely for yield, not necessarily because of the value of the stock. His view was that that’s what, you know, largely contributed to equity markets doing so well, but he thinks now, actually, fund managers or he at least, is actually starting, you know, to look at the value of companies, right? Like, companies need to be performing well and delivering strongly, and just that search for yield, is not necessarily going to be good enough anymore, to just, you know, keep investors going. Just on the bear market, bull market. Why it’s called that, I think, this is just extra facts stuff. Bull market I think is because a bull attacks with its head going up, so that’s how the bull market sort of came about. Bear market, I think, is because the bear attacks with its paw going down, sort of. So that’s one of the, I think there’s a lot of theories on how those terminologies came about, but it’s one we’re gonna share today. So the next question, ‘what’s your thoughts on doubling down and putting more into the market at this time?’. Okay, I’ll have a first crack. This is really into strategy type thing, so I mean, that is an investment strategy, like dollar-cost averaging, or picking and choosing stocks, or buying and trying to trade through the day. There’s all these different types of investment strategies, and this is one that some people use. So to Jenee’s point earlier on whatever your strategy was, and sticking with it if that’s what you intended to do, then that’s probably what you should do. It’s like, not a great strategy if you then don’t execute on it. But if it wasn’t, then it may be taking on additional risk and trying to time the market when maybe that’s not really what you’re prepped to do or the risk profile that you are looking for. So I think it really comes down to an independent decision on what you want to do and what your risk appetite is, and can you…you know, if it were to continue dropping, can you afford to hold that out for a recovery which inevitably will almost definitely come. So yeah, anything to add on that Jenee? Yeah, no, I think that nails it. Having this, you know, setting the strategy and sticking to it is the key thing. Yeah, and I mean, that’s the other thing that I often think about, is how involved do I want to be? Do I want to be sitting there watching markets, timing things, trying to be clever, or have more of a sort of set-and-forget strategy? So that’s, I guess, something that everyone needs to make a decision about. Completely. I think, I’m just looking at some of the chat coming through on the side here and I think it would be worth, you know, we’ve talked a little bit about dollar-cost-averaging, but it would probably be nice to talk a little about people who are choosing stocks and stuff as well. I think there’s some really good insight coming through. One of the big things I think about when you’re choosing your investments is you’re choosing to support a company and possibly something that you have some additional information on that you feel like gives you an advantage over others to be able to choose that as an option. That can be as simple as you really like their product. It might be that you work in a particular industry and you know that there’s delay of things coming in and that might impact the industry more broadly. It’s looking at these different pieces of information of things that you can follow, and then applying that to how you might invest. That’s one of the ways you can go about picking and choosing individual stocks. The other way, of course, is just by setting target prices based on the numbers, and those people doing that should also continue to follow those strategies if that’s what they’re committed to and want to continue doing, because once again, investing only when market’s up is just a poor investment strategy. It’s hey, you don’t really achieve overall better returns I think. But is for some reason the way that all humans feel like it’s the nicest way of doing it. Everyone loves going in and buying and just adding to their already well-performing portfolio. Like, if we could do that all the time it would be great, but unfortunately it’s just not quite how works. So one of the questions here is maybe less specific to this. It’s around a company called Cannasouth which recently listed on the exchange. For those who don’t know, Cannasouth is a cannabis production company. There’s some questions around here, ‘is it a good buy?’ Being a medicinal marijuana research company, how it’s valued at the moment, some questions around the share price. So anything you’d like to comment on that one, Jenee? No, I have no idea. I don’t know. Good to look at the regulatory environment and obviously, as everyone knows, there’s a referendum coming up, and you know, these sorts of things shape it, but you’d have to just look at the fundamentals of the company, as you would with any other company. Yeah, I think for that person they’re wondering the value of the price of the company and stuff right now. Comes back to an earlier point, where often, we’re not valuing the company on the price of what it might be today, we’re valuing it on what we think it might be worth in the future. Companies like that are probably in the, you know, the more extreme ends of risk, but that may come with potential really good upside. So it’s just going in with eyes wide open on that, and you know, one of the contributors to that will be how the regulatory or government and stuff and that environment unfolds, but I’m sure there’ll be a whole bunch of others as well, so sort of worth really doing the research on. This one here speaking specifically to that advent of coronavirus, it’s talking to the, to the large hit of the American stock market in the last few days, and the question is, ‘do we think the New Zealand trade market will go into a recession on the back of that, and if so, will it be as big of a drop as an American and European recession?’. So maybe we can speak to how some of these recessions have played up in the past and and how they’ve impacted New Zealand, because sometimes we’ve been relatively protected, and other times we’ve probably felt it a bit more. So have you got some sort of, some background to those? Yeah, I suppose New Zealand’s market has typically been protected, but we are a little island nation reliant on other markets for our exports, as everyone knows, and China is a key one. I don’t quite have figures off the top of my head, but I mean, we are so heavily weighted towards China and we are an outlooking economy, so I think if things get really bad maybe we’re insulated, but we’ll definitely definitely feel it. To step back, to have a broader discussion whether the coronavirus encourages countries like New Zealand to diversify and look beyond China. I was listening to a podcast this morning, and they were talking about how before coronavirus, China was already starting to, they used the word ‘decoupled’ from some of the international markets, and this is largely because America China becoming more protectionist and trying to do things themselves. The debate on the podcast, which was quite interesting, was whether coronavirus would speed up that decoupling, so speed up that process of countries looking beyond China where they’ve previously been able to, you know, really penetrate that market and diversify. So this is a kind of big philosophical thing, but it could be interesting to see whether coronavirus is a catalyst that encourages more diversification and how that might actually change the sort of structure of the global market as we’ve known it in the last few years. That’s a really good rundown on sort of what environment we’re in and what we’re seeing now and how these operate. I think two key points there, you know, such a reliant economy, New Zealand on lots of other parts of the world, but I’d also just say the New Zealand economy is very strong at the moment, and probably is in one of the better positions globally to support initiatives that might help the economy starts to grow again as those lags happen. I think, you know, to my point earlier, there have been times we’ve recovered much slower than other places, and times where we’ve almost seemed like we’re not impacted by it, so it’ll be interesting to see how that plays out. But what I will say is when something happens in the US, you can almost guarantee at least that market open in New Zealand there’s some sort of correlations to what happened there. I think we work it out through the day. I would say the construction industry is going strong, sorry to those people who can hear that drilling going on, I think someone’s run off to try make sure that stops for the moment, but we’ll try get that sorted. So yeah. Before we move on, I’ll just add a point on that. So yeah, in terms of the New Zealand economy, it is strong at the moment, relatively speaking, so I mean our GDP, so our economic growth, has slowed, but the government still has a surplus, even though a deficit is forecast for the next year, just a small deficit, but there is a bit of wiggle room we don’t, as the government will keep repeating, at length, which is a bit annoying, it is meeting its budget responsibility rules, so there is actually quite a bit more room for the government to borrow more to spend more. And I think it will be interesting to see if things really kick off with coronavirus the way the government might respond, so Treasury’s busy looking into it at the moment, as you would expect they would, looking at whether they might do, you know, worst-case scenario, do helicopter money, so basically, put two thousand dollars in all of our bank accounts or did some sort of a tax cut, or just really get that fiscal stimulus going, so invest, but allocate much more money to investing more to stimulate the economy. People are thinking that that might be a better solution, should things get really bad, versus the Reserve Bank cutting interest rates, as I said before, making it even cheaper to borrow money, encouraging people to spend that way. But there are some tools that, that can be used, and I think actually, as we speak, Finance Minister Grant Robertson is doing a speech in which he’s outlining some of the scenarios that Treasury is looking at, and some of the responses that could happen. And I think in Hong Kong, they’ve announced the government there is basically just dishing out cash to get people spending, so it’ll be interesting to see whether that actually does stimulate things, or whether people just take their cash and pay off some debt, or pop it in the bank, or don’t actually do anything with it, but yeah. That’s a great update, thank you. I didn’t realise that announcement’s on right now, so follow that with interest this afternoon. So the next question was ‘given the dip in the market, what would your advice to people be, to new investors?’. I guess we should reiterate, not financial advisers, but I think we can probably maybe just give an opinion of what we tell any investor if it was based on, you know, some largely well proven theory now, I think, on that. So I don’t think it’s specific to new investors, but experiencing this type of downturn in the early stage of your investing journey is probably a really good thing, because one of the big things about investors is getting comfortable with these ups and downs. So what do you think about that, the comment, specific to new investors Jenee? I mean, you make a good point. The values of stocks are falling, so it’s a good time to, to buy them, but I suppose for new investors, as much as it is for anyone, you have to have a stomach made of steel, so if invest now and in a week’s time your values drop, you know, don’t panic and then pull out because you’ll be locking in your losses. You’ll be pulling out and you won’t give your investment time to recoup those losses. So I guess if you decide you want to invest, as we’ve said before, pick a strategy and just stick to it, and I guess just, if it’s what you want to do, just be committed to it. Don’t sort of dilly dally jump in and then pull out, and so on. And actually, I mean the thing is, because it is great that it is so easy to invest nowadays, with platforms like Sharesies, and you know InvestNow and Hatch, it’s cheaper, it’s easier, but it’s um, it’s not a game, you know? It’s still, there’s still risk involved, and you still need to take it seriously. Yeah, I think investing is so behavioural based, isn’t it? Like anything really, if you want to be good at something it’s worth getting your behaviour, sort of, first. Sometimes we start to focus on other things. So there’s a few tricks I use sometimes to make myself feel good about, what I do is like right well, when markets are a bit bumpier then maybe choose something else to focus on, like not just the return on it. Like it might be the average price that you’ve paid for an investment, so you know, if you do continue to buy on these then you can sort of potentially make that a bit lower over time. Focus on the number of shares you hold, because the shares are still the shares. We often talk around Sharesies about how it’s so different to property because, the share market, because in reality, when these areas of uncertainty happen, it happens across the market, but we’re not going to go home today to our letterbox and see a big red down arrow and saying ‘hey, you’ve lost $10,000 on the value of your house today’ or something. It’s like, what are the things, your behaviours, that might be able to make you still feel positive about investing and putting away, and understand that this is a long game and stick with that strategy because it’s, it’s almost definitely still can be the right one. We’re getting towards the end of our time here, so I think a lot of the questions they’re covering a lot of what we’ve talked about already, and for those who are asking, this video is going to be up, going to be up on available on YouTube afterwards, as well as if there’s been any interruption. But I think maybe if we could summarise a few thoughts on the dip, and some takeaways for people who have been a little bit concerned. Maybe you could try a bit of a wrap up first Jenee, and then I can go afterwards. Okay um right, so for me personally, I try to avoid watching daily market fluctuations, and I mean, that fits in with my longer-term strategy. If you have a shorter term strategy, you might want to be looking at it more, but this is what markets do, right? They go up and they go down, and for a long time now we’ve gotten used to markets going up and seeing really high returns, so yeah, I think it’s important to stick, stay focused on your strategy and yeah. And also this is a sort of moving piece, so while it’s really useful to look back at what’s happened at the past, I think there are some things in the current economy that are different to what we’ve seen in the past, so I’m interested to see how that might actually change things looking ahead. So the key thing there is the fact interest rates are really really low, and something else which Liam Dann from The Herald wrote about, which we haven’t discussed, is how banks are a bit stronger now, quite a lot stronger than they were back in the 2008 global financial crisis where they weren’t quite so keen to…there was a credit crunch, and that’s not quite, we’re not quite in that same scenario now. So it is interesting to look back historically and to see what’s happened, but also there are some quite different factors in the market at the moment which make it quite difficult to look ahead and know what’s going to happen. Yeah awesome, I think I mean, I agree with everything you just said. I think there’s a few key points to remember, which is this whole thing about certainty. So it’s remembering that the reason this is happening is because people are just not quite sure what’s going to happen, and when you’re valuing a stock it’s normally valuing what you think it’s going to be in the future, not right now, so it’s yet to be seen but there’s potential that there’ll be very little impact at all, and there’s potential there might be quite material impact. But companies are very very good at adjusting their strategies to accommodate those, so one of the things I’m sure most companies who think they might be impacted at are doing right now or among many management teams would be working out, ‘well, how are we going to change our business to accommodate what is a changing environment for us?’. The next thing is for those who do use dollar-cost averaging as a strategy, which like I said, I know many Sharesies investors do. It’s just, never forget that only buying when it’s going up is a really poor way of executing that strategy. It’s not how you get the best out of it, you have to buy when the sort of cheaper opportunities available as well, for those ones. I think something we’ve spoken about a lot is whatever your strategy was a week ago when markets were going great, it’s probably still relevant today where it’s been a little bit rougher. And in saying that, today we’ve seen a little bit of recovery on markets and a little calmer in the US overnight, but who knows what tomorrow will hold. If we could guess that, as you say Jenee, we’d probably be on some boats somewhere in the Caribbean and really enjoying it. But hey, we’re gonna wrap it up there. Thank you so much to everyone who tuned in. Jenee, thank you so much for joining us. It’s so great to have your insight on the economy. Thanks for having me and thanks for tuning in everyone. Hope it’s been helpful. Have an amazing day everyone, and this will be up on YouTube soon. I’m sure we’ll be in touch with any tips and any questions, keep sending them through and we’ll make sure the team get back to them as soon as possible. Thanks a great day!

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